Thursday, August 05, 2010

Timmons on privacy

Once again, I'm putting a response from one of the main proponents of disclosure in the main body of the blog. As always, feel free to comment.

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To all that have written so far I am impressed with the tone, the
reflective thoughts, and the care all are taking in addressing the
issue of disclosure/case lists in Lincoln - Douglas debate. The
discussion is needed, and this blog has produced some of the best
discussion on this issue. Thank you!

I will address one issue in this post. My response will center on the
issue of the privacy concerns/violations that could potentially be
raised as a result of a mandatory case list at an invitational debate
tournament. In full disclosure (pun clearly intended), I don't have a
law degree (or to quote Jay Z, "I ain't passed the bar but I know a
little bit"), but I do have a few thoughts on this issue. My thoughts
are based on my personal understanding of the "reasonable expectation
of privacy" as it relates to invitational debate tournaments based on
my research before deciding to implement a case list last year at the
Greenhill Fall Classic, in addition to consulting with people who DO
have a legal degree and background in the area of constitutional law,
educational law and privacy law (and the inherent intersections of
those areas).

Simply put, the privacy argument has no merit as it relates to
mandatory case lists at invitational tournaments from a legal
perspective (in my humble opinion).

Initially, the first question is, does a student have a reasonable
expectation of privacy if they agree to attend a debate tournament
that requires them to disclose materials once that material is used in
a debate? I steadfastly believe the answer is a resounding no. Two
things are important. First, the student would have to prove that
cases are "educational records" based on the statutory definition of
the phrase AND that maintenance of those records is a violation of
either a constitutional violation of privacy and/or a violation of a
states legitimate expectation of privacy AND the potential impact to
disclosure justifies a rejection of the case list requirement by a
host of an invitational event on constitutional grounds. I think that
burden is impossible to meet. For most schools, the Family Educational
Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA) indicates that schools "may release
records (this even grants that cases are education records which is
quite the assumption) without consent, to school officials with
legitimate educational interests, specified officials for audit or
evaluation for purposes or organizations conducting certain studies
for or on behalf of the school". Based on the educational defenses of
case lists, they seem to meet the criteria out lined in statutory law.
Secondly, the idea that cases are required to be disclosed AFTER they
are read in public by the student seems to cut against "expectations
of privacy." The ideas have already been aired in public, and BY
CHOICE (as a result of attending that event, and agreeing to the
stipulations of the host), no right to privacy in the area of case
lists could be claimed. The idea that anyone can watch debates make
them public it seems. I will point out that if the individuals that
DO feel (and that interpretation is upheld by a legal challenge) that
the sharing of "educational records" in the context of disclosing
cases, are violations of privacy, we are in a world of hurt as a
community. Oral critiques, decisions being announced in the room with
an audience (a winner and a loser being announced after the students
engaged in academic competitions where their work is evaluated in
public, clearly violate this standard). So would results on any web
page (or printed packets for that matter). Tournaments also currently
ask for phone numbers, addresses and, if a tournament accepts personal
checks, checks with account numbers. Given new laws on identity theft
they would all seem to be much more a privacy concern that case lists.
These seem more closely worthy of evaluation/critique than kids who
agree to attend an event (which is invitational in nature).

Tournaments where case lists are required are not mandatory for any
debater to attend. Chris Palmer argues that "And as long as some kids
out there are graded in debate classes, we can't say with confidence
that they have a choice about attending any given tournament." My
retort is that as long as tournament hosts explain the expectation in
advance, parents can discuss with their child's coaches their
philosophy/concerns and reasonable accommodation could be made for
that student to attend other events. Chris also argues that "Besides,
giving them the choice to attend doesn't excuse putting a burden on
those attending if the burden proves harmful; especially if the
practice proliferates at bid tournaments". Proving harm seems to put
some burden on those defending (or questioning) potential privacy
violations that case lists are, in fact, violations of any "reasonable
expectation of privacy". Before spending more time on that portion of
the argument, perhaps more analysis or reference to HOW case lists
violate privacy would be in order. If a school/tournament host claims
that case lists serve "legitimate educational interests", which is
easy to defend for obvious reasons, the student has no leg to stand
on.

Let's just stay those who feel that case lists are a violation of
privacy are correct and the initial argumentative burden has been met.
The question at that point is does the student (and as a result the
parent by allowing then to attend the tournament in question), waive
any "right to privacy" (either implicitly or explicitly), as a
condition to participate in an invitational tournament. I think the
answer is a definitive yes. Just like we agree to searches at airports
as a condition of flying or walking through a metal detector for a
debate tournament in a "tough" neighborhood, agreeing to attend a
tournament with a case list waives any so called expectation of
privacy one might have.

The bottom line is that no one has a RIGHT to attend any tournament.
Any host gets to set reasonable expectations for their guests.

Again, I am not an attorney but a lifetime debate coach dedicated to
serving both my personal students, and the broader community. I would
respectfully submit that those that feel that case lists are a
violation of privacy need more of a warrant on the "why" to that
claim. Maybe it just "feels wrong" because it is new in the Lincoln -
Douglas community. As with weighing any competing claims, the impact
to "feeling wrong" is outweighed by the benefits to case lists from my
survey of their impact based on over 15 years of them operating in the
policy world. Many see that analogy as not relevant. I see it as
important to serve as a reference point to learn from as case lists
are tested in Lincoln - Douglas.

I have chosen NOT to address the side issue of if case lists create
obstacles for students once they leave the debate world in a lengthy
manner other than saying this, if President Obama can admit to taking
illicit drugs as a youth and still win the election, a high school kid
arguing "capitalism bad" will be ok in twenty years! As a final tongue
in cheek parting shot, perhaps kids watching what they put on their
Face book pages and /or vbd posts of old might be more of a concern to
them down the road than the "cap bad k". My experience is that many of
my former debaters have been googled by employers and asked about
their debate career. It led to great discussions, even about silly/out
there arguments they ran during their time in debate. In all cases I
have heard about, those conversations were all positive.

Case lists are no panacea for all that ails Lincoln - Douglas debate.
To say they should be rejected on "privacy grounds" doesn't seem like
the right voter to extend in the final rebuttal based on all
information I am able to surmise.

Again, thanks to all for a great civil dialogue on the issue. I look
forward to reading more.

Aaron Timmons

7 comments:

Tom Deal said...

1. I believe this to be a total strawman/nonissue. I concede that the nondisclosure position is not invasive of privacy. If you ain't passed the bar but you know a little bit, then you also know that "talk is talk, money is money, business is business, and hustle is hustle." translation: this is talk, and has nothing to do with the other arguments that are being made. more importantly, this has nothing to do with the money (big v small arg) business (collusion/betrayal between teams/debaters, ruthlessness competition and the like) and hustle (work ethic) parts of the equation. Thank you AT for completely dispelling this myth so that we can move on to the actually substantive parts of the issue.

2. If someone were to go through my debate history, there are surely incriminating (at least to some potential employers) incidents to dig up, and i think every single debater probably has some of the same. I personally am not ashamed in the slightest of my (still) youthful indiscretions, of which AT was privy to at least one semi-memorable line at the TOC. I believe many of the "crazy" arguments I made. If this makes me a fool, so be it, I'm a fool for knowledge and understanding beyond shallow assumption. In my opinion debaters should be more shamed by allegations of intellectual dishonesty, collusion between powers that be, and structural advantage taken over weaker opponents than any argument they've ever made. I suppose some would consider this the position of a sophist. I'm also the dude who thinks holocaust triv arguments trivialize the holocaust.

3. This is the latest blog post on disclosure/caselist, so I'll post here rather than on one of the more topical places below in hope that it doesn't get buried (probably will happen anyway).

4. A brief list of the concerns that are TBA [to be answered]:

-Do caselists homogenize?
-Does homogenization privilege or advantage certain teams?
-Does a caselist support one ideology or pedagogy of debate over others despite its supposedly non ideological character?
-Is it ok for tournament directors to unilaterally declare this "the standard of competition" or something analogous, since its effects most certainly extend beyond those tournaments?
-The final demo round my kids watched at VBI was Plan/Counter-plan with Plans Bad theory. Somehow, this isn't the vision I had for how the future of LD would be. Does the caselist favor this sort of policy-lite environment, or does a caselist move us in an authentically LD direction that meaningfully expands on the current activity?

Tom Deal said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tom Deal said...

Also, I have to say:

Can people representing schools who regularly participate in prep outs, scripting/frontlining, coaches doing significant research and work for debaters, and teams that work together or share info to gain advantages over other debaters please stop acting like they're not part of the problem?

I have no intentions of calling anyone out (sooo passé), making anyone the bad guy, or getting preachy. I have prepped, frontlined, and done work for kids. I have made deals with devils and shared insider info. I plan on doing so in the future. I admit these can be/are problems and that my behavior perpetuates them. My reason for doing these things is that my competition certainly has no compunction about the practices, until it comes time to gloss it over in public discussion. Can everyone please admit that we're all complicit in these activities? No one's innocent, but none of us are necessarily guilty either. If you don't want to do these things, you obviously don't have to, but you shouldn't talk one way and act another. The good Lord don't take kindly to hypocrites and holier-than-thous.

I would like to note that while my tone is emotional, I hope no one accuses me of dragging a civil discussion down, since that's not my intention in the slightest.

-Rebar Niemi

CO Debater said...

Legitimate question: if disclosure is so good for small teams, then why have I never heard a single small-school person advocate for it? This smacks of paternalism. If not having a case list hurts small-schools, let them hurt themselves. Don't force them. It's no skin off your nose.

Anonymous said...

Hey Rebar,

I do think some of the arguments to be addressed have been addressed in replies in earlier posts. (A discussion spread out over multiple blog posts is prone, as you noted, to bury things.) So, to summarize quickly:

-Do caselists homogenize? I don't think that this is the case. Policy Debate teams run varied arguments even with the existence of a case list. I believe this was an argument against brief books and whatnot as well in the past. (I think this addresses the second point, too.)

-Does a caselist support one ideology or pedagogy of debate over others despite its supposedly non ideological character? I've talked about this elsewhere. I am not sure why it would privilege one form over the other. Both policy-heavy teams and kritik teams disclose in Policy Debate, for example. Those types of cases represent very different debate "ideologies."

-Is it ok for tournament directors to unilaterally declare this "the standard of competition" or something analogous, since its effects most certainly extend beyond those tournaments?

I do believe tournament directors have the right to do whatever they'd like at tournaments. If people are very upset with something a tournament does, the tournament will change its practice or, in the long term, lose participants.

Bronx Science's New York City Invitational, well into the 1990s, featured its own resolution. Despite being one of the largest LD tournaments in the country, this feature didn't catch on at other tournaments because it wasn't popular. On the other hand, other things that the tournament did champion DID catch on, because they were popular. (Posted pairings instead of assemblies, for example.) A more modern example of this might be MJP and strikes. These were (and still are, in some places) controversial. But they caught on, I'd argue, because a lot of people wanted them.

A major reason why I want to have disclosure at my tournament, as I noted in my invitation, was because I think much of this discussion is occurring in a vacuum, where people who have little experience with case lists (since they previously existed only in Policy Debate) are making very broad claims about their effects. I want to have this kind of experiment at my tournament (a comprehensive survey -- which will be authored by folks who are both for and against disclosure prior to the tournament -- will be distributed at the end) because I have a very diverse competitive and judging pool. Diverse geographically, diverse ideologically, and so on.

-The final demo round my kids watched at VBI was Plan/Counter-plan with Plans Bad theory. Somehow, this isn't the vision I had for how the future of LD would be. Does the caselist favor this sort of policy-lite environment, or does a caselist move us in an authentically LD direction that meaningfully expands on the current activity? I think the case list reports what people are running. I don't think it causes people to run thing or another. That hasn't been the effect when it was used before, as noted above. This will be an area that is addressed in the survey for sure.

Rebar -- please backchannel me (joncruz1138@gmail.com). I would like your input when the survey is designed, if you would like to help out.

Anonymous said...

CO Debater -- I addressed this point on an earlier thread in response to Paras Kumar. It's a fair point, but check out my reply to him, because I think it relates to what you are saying:

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=7552601&postID=5569451812821128019

(I am redirecting you because there are a lot of interesting points on that thread that were raised by other posters as well.)

Here is the way to find all the previous articles, by the way, to those just joining the conversation:

http://coachean.blogspot.com/2010_07_01_archive.html

Tom Deal said...

Jon,

I was sort of summing up my lingering questions rather than putting out my version of the definitive issues, sorry if it came off like that originally.

I definitely agree that in large part tournament directors have free reign over their domain, as well they should. I can't really draw a good distinction between "things that tourneys can do" and "things that tourneys shouldn't do if they want to," so maybe i'll muse on it and come back to the question.

Having participated in NDT/CEDA debate (in which most every tournament has mandated caselists) I will say that caselists in my experience DO lead to homogenization (primarily into two camps, a dominant and big school dominated policymaking group and a smaller non-policymaking group, although there are overlaps) and DO affect the types of arguments that are run, channeling them into narrower categories than would otherwise exist. This is however one person's limited experience in such an environment, and I have no problem saying that as a critical team my partner and i certainly felt marginalized, not respected in the community at large, and actively disliked by the bigger name brand policy teams we faced.

I will be happy to provide some input on your survey, you'll be receiving an email from me shortly.

Also, in response to your conversation with sophie and susannah on the other post, I too would be interested to see some sort of petition or roll call of teams/debaters for and against, especially among those who are considered smaller schools.

And I think that the argument that prep outs have diminishing value in policy because of the length and scope of rounds is very true. LD has rounds that are short and can be almost entirely scripted (i know this because i've done it, and it works like a charm).

I'm also sympathetic to the small school paternalism argument. Bainbridge is a school that would probably benefit from a comprehensive caselist (being on the smallish side) but my debaters from the get go were intuitively against it. This is mere anecdote and doesn't prove a thing, but I'll throw it out there.

Jon thank you for being so open and responsive, hopefully we can keep broadening the discussion to more and more people.