There's been lots of bad craziness in certain quarters having nothing to do with forensics, so I won’t bother you with that. We'll just get down to our own craziness.
I have to admit that I’m amused by the so-called arguments in favor of independent entries. I mean, we’ve had independent entries for as long as I can remember, starting back usually with an eager LDer accompanied by a long-suffering parent. Some of our favorite judges (and people) were those parents, because they were usually pretty smart people who understood the activity and listened to the arguments and made relatively clear decisions based on easy to understand criteria. One wishes one could say that about all judges. Anyhow, as far as I know, no one is trying to eliminate such entries from the field. There are certain aspects of such entries, for instance, a presumed privilege set, given that it’s their own money, but they carry the benign agreement of their schools that they do what they’re doing. I’ve seen some arguments about liability and such with parents, but at the core I wonder if anyone is really worried about that. I guess when something horrible happens, that attitude will change, but at the moment, that’s all really beside the point.
The other independent entries I have experience of is paid-for programs that teach debate. Without exception, every one of these I have dealt with has caused unacceptable problems. They've lied, created bogus schools, flouted judge obligations, and turned all sorts of tricks wreaking amazing havoc in the tab room when their shenanigans are eventually uncovered. The idea that these folks are white knights fighting for a universal right to debate who deserve a chance runs counter to the experiences we’ve had in the time that we have given them the chance. They have uniformly behaved badly. To suggest that some of what they do is non-unique does not address the fact that, if a school does it, I have recourse to that school’s administration (recourse which we have taken) but when one of these programs does it, and you go to find the adult supervisor and there isn’t one, and when you fall back on email and the registrant was actually the student with a secondary email, well, you’ve gotten nowhere.
I’m certainly in favor of more debate for more people. I’m in favor of schools doing a lot of good things for more people. I also understand that education dollars are limited (which I feel is one of the great failings of our society). But let’s face it. Families are spending a lot of money to get their kids independent debate training. There’s nothing wrong with that. But if they want to participate in organized high school debate, they need to be part of the high school debate organization. They obviously have the money to put into that effort, and the paid-for programs have the incentive to funnel their protégés into organized programs, so let them do that. But meanwhile, I hate to say it, but years of unacceptable behavior are pretty hard to ignore, and are also not worth arguing about, which is why I haven’t gotten involved in any “forums” on the subject. All of these programs have given me good reasons not to have anything to do with them: a lot of talk about how wonderful they are is extremely unlikely to make me forget those bad experiences.
4 comments:
"The other independent entries I have experience of is paid-for programs that teach debate. Without exception, every one of these I have dealt with has caused unacceptable problems." -- I have no experience with such beasts, but I have no doubt that they're awful. I have been party to one abuse, when I judged a Bellarmine policy team at Harvard traveling as "Folsom Prison" because they had exceeded the number of days their principal was willing for them to miss school. The problem with the anti-independent rhetoric, though, is precisely that it doesn't make such distinctions. When you say "independent" it encompasses those people, homeschooled Joe Millman, Zachary Taylor debating for a school with no team, and maybe even my HS appearance at Bump since my speech team and coach weren't there. Maybe you don't mean to use such a broad brush, but "part of and representing a high school team" can easily encompass all of them.
You say that "I’ve seen some arguments about liability and such with parents, but at the core I wonder if anyone is really worried about that." According to Tara Tate Carr, that's exactly what some of the most important tournaments are most worried about. Entries like Zach Taylor and I may or may not have had any implicit liability protection from their high schools; Joe Millman obviously didn't. What the NFHS/State Association criteria are for "independents" I am less sure, since accreditation is apparently also an important concern for some tournaments (because it is a concern for Kansas and Missouri high schools).
Anyway, my point is that with an unclear definition of what each coach and tournament mean by independent or abusive entries, it's no surprise that many people on the independent spectrum feel a little beleaguered. More clarity and advocacy on their behalf would be extremely appreciated if you don't intend that result for many/most members of that spectrum.
Certainly smaller/newer squads in general can be administrative hassles, but I think they are essential to the breadth and growth of debate. The Taylors may be perfect citizens,but I can certainly think of occasional tabroom hassles that I and the Millmans have caused; I am all the more grateful that we were all allowed to debate, and I daresay we have all tried to give back in recognition of that.
I concur with Bro Ryan. I have no objections to great debate citizens like the Millmans and Taylors; anyone in a similar position can inquire with me about entry to any tournament I'm involved with.
This discussion piqued my interest, as a former forensics competitor (and debate partner of Bro. Ryan back in the day). My participation these days usually consists of judging District policy debate and Congress. But I've always been interested in how tournaments are conducted and run.
I think that if you're looking to draw a distinction between good and bad debate citizens, you might need to develop appropriate language. I think "independent entry" could be considered a positive term for the following types of entries:
- Bona fide homeschool students (with 21+ adult supervision)
- Parent / legal guardian accompanying student from school where a) there is no team or b) the regular coach cannot attend (and, in both cases, the school's admin has signed off on participation)
- Student traveling with another recognized school, upon consent of both schools
I'm sure this term will be seen as pejorative, but I think one could use the term "bandit entries" for prospective entrants who have neither administrative nor parental approval to participate, or those who lie and misrepresent themselves to gain entry while disrespecting judging obligations and liability considerations. People who have no intention of being part of the above-board debate community should be considered separately from those who make a genuine effort to meet their obligations and follow both the rules and their school's guidelines.
Thoughts?
This pins down perfectly the so-called independents who should always be welcome at tournaments:
- Bona fide homeschool students (with 21+ adult supervision)
- Parent / legal guardian accompanying student from school where a) there is no team or b) the regular coach cannot attend (and, in both cases, the school's admin has signed off on participation)
- Student traveling with another recognized school, upon consent of both schools
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